Hannah and Colleen interview our friend and teammate, Erik, about his life and experiences teaching and living in Iraq as well as his studies of Kurdish history and culture.

Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org.

Also, here's a link to the book Erik recommends in the show! (https://www.amazon.com/Kurdistan-Global-Stage-Kinship-Community/dp/0813563526)

Here's a Rough Transcript!

Hannah: Welcome to Between Iraq and a Hard Place. I'm Hannah!

Colleen: And I'm Colleen.

Hannah: And we're going to tell you about our life in Iraq.

Colleen: It's going to be fun. I hope so.

Hannah: Uh, we have our first international podcast, Colleen. It's very exciting.

Colleen: That is exciting.

Hannah: We're going to talk today to our good friend Erik. Erik served with us in Iraq for many years, seven, seven ish years. Um, and he started the same time as me. So we've been in this for a long time. Not as long as Colleen, but we're trying to catch up. Um, so Erik grew up in Mexico, and that's where he is currently. He lived in Suly and was on a team with you. And then he was in Dohuk with me for a little while and then has also done some stuff in Southern Iraq as well. And so we're just going to talk to him about his life in Iraq, because we're not men, so we don't know what it's like there for men.

Colleen: You have a unique perspective.

Hannah: Yeah. Thank thanks for coming, Erik, or thanks for being there and recording with us.

Erik: Well, really happy to be here and to have been there with you.

Colleen: We thought we might make you try to tell us which of our teams you actually enjoyed being on more, but we decided that you're really nice and that wouldn't be fair to you. So we're not going to ask you that question.

Erik: I would say something very even and diplomatic.

Colleen: Yes, because you are diplomatic and we appreciate that.

Hannah: Yeah. So I guess our first question for you, which is our first question for everybody who works for SGI, is how did you how did you hear about SGI? How did you get started with us?

Erik: So I would have heard about SGI actually somewhere in middle school or high school. I'm not sure if I would have actually put together that it was SGI, but I began hearing people that my parents knew talk about it, specifically Jerry Brown. So I was aware of work in Iraq and that there was a group in Nashville working in, in the Kurdish region. And, and I kind of slowly pieced piece things together from there. I think I heard a lot more about it right as I was getting ready to leave college. And that was because Jerry contacted me very directly and said, hey, consider consider SGI. And, they're amazing.

Hannah: Yeah, that's great. You got that real personal contact.

Colleen: So was Jerry the main reason you chose SGI or Iraq or like, what kind of got you the rest of the way, right?

Erik: So I hadn't been shopping around for like, organizations as I was just I had studied Middle East history and I had a general interest in the Middle East. And really it was Jerry's personal note and kind of right at the right place at the right time, right as I was about to start the job hunt. And and he he basically said that SGI and Iraq and Kurdistan are would be a really, really good first entry into the Middle East And to getting a sense of whether that was something for me or not. And he gave me examples and we really had a good relationship. So the fact that he kind of vouched and then provided a personal connection with with the director of SGI, that really helped me. And as soon as as soon as we actually spoke directly, that then it was almost it was settled very quickly that this was a this was an organization I could work with and that I could respect. Yeah.

Hannah: So what did the interview application process look like for you? Like I lived close enough that I could come for an interview. How did you how did you do that one?

Erik: I think I was not in person. I did submit an application. I remember that. I can't remember what I wrote, but it was a it was a Skype call with Dave, and I think I did that the day after I graduated from college. So it was yeah, it was on a beach, actually, and I interviewed with Dave, so.

Hannah: That's fantastic. I guess I also didn't know that you had done Middle Eastern history for college. Was there like when you were doing that, was there a specific country or people group in the Middle East that you were like, Yeah, think this is what I want to do? Or were you just kind of open?

Erik: It was a general personal and academic interest of mine to get into Middle East studies and history. And I had an incredible professor at the university that really mentored me in studying Middle Eastern history. And I wasn't I wasn't sure. On moving to the Middle East or ever working, working there. But it just happened to come together as an opportunity right at that point. So I wasn't honed in on Iraq, but actually because there was some family history in Iraq, though. So that was in the background. My dad went to, left Mexico and went to the Kurdish region in 1992, right after the first Gulf War and right after Saddam Hussein's kind of big take back of land and kind of retribution on people who rose up against him during the Gulf War. And so he went on a on a project to dig water wells in different Kurdish villages. And he spent a few months in the country. And he came back with with all kinds of stuff, with Kurdish clothing, with literal machine gun bullets and all kinds of cool things to show me and stories. And he was so moved that he had actually considered moving our family out there to continue living there. It didn't work out that way. But from that was around when I was seven years old. So I was aware of some part of the Kurdish story from way back. And so and that was always in the background. So I can put it together now that that was that was something leading me there.

Hannah: Yeah.

Colleen: Yeah. What you're saying is we got to start recruiting with the the first graders.

Erik: Yes.

Hannah: Oh, man. That's going to be…

Colleen: I mean, that's kind of what I trace some of my story back to as well, is like having a map of Iraq on the back of our door and looking at all the places mentioned in the news.

Erik: And yeah, and it helps having, you know, some little family story that you can tell when you're first getting into Iraq and meeting people. And it really it's really served me really well to have a story connecting my dad to Iraq and basically saying that, you know, it runs in the family. You know, yeah, I got this from my dad.

Colleen: So can you tell us a little bit about some of the different roles and projects you were a part of while you lived in Iraq?

Erik: Sure. I so the first time I went, I was I hadn't studied education, but I went in as a middle school teacher. So I got to teach. I think the first my first year, I taught eighth grade history and literature, 11th grade health and economics. Yes. And let's just say.

Hannah: What an interesting combination!

Erik: You can guess which one was a stretch for me. But the but I loved teaching humanities classes and I ended up teaching, I think, a ninth grade history and literature as well. And then some some 12th grade, a 12th grade class as well. And then so, yes, for a few years I was doing the high school and middle school work. Then I very briefly taught at the American University in their academic preparatory program. So the program that gets students up to the level to be admitted into the American university. And then I was out of the country for a time. And then 2014, 2015, during the ISIS takeover of parts of Iraq and the displacement of Yazidi communities and other minority communities in the country. I spoke to SGI again and a project came up to do schools for displaced children in Yazidi camps right outside of Dohuk. And up until that time I'd only worked or lived in Suly, but that just seemed like the right thing to do. So I moved to Dohuk and helped get that project going as a technically project manager. And so I, I helped facilitate two schools in that camp with all with Yazidi students. But as Sinjar, the city that they're from, is run by two different education systems. So we we actually put two schools in one and ran it ran the two schools on different shifts. So that was a real education of how education works from a different perspective. And it was a real privilege to be able to do that with SGI.

Colleen: And it was a really neat school area and you guys were able to accomplish that really fast from what it seemed like, things normally run in the speed.

Erik: It was it was remarkable. Yeah. And probably, you know, some of that's the country in crisis. But but we also just had so much so much blessing and favor in the eyes of all the authorities to be able to navigate that. And so I was shocked. I was shocked by that. But it was also it was so encouraging. Yeah. To just just to see that school go up so, so quickly and then to see it fill up immediately with students. It was a really big deal. And yeah, that was an unforgettable time.

Hannah: Yeah. So I was living in Dohuk at the time and teaching at CSM and our students sponsored, I think you guys got them going on putting together backpacks for the students in the camp, which was an amazing part.. way for me to feel involved in that project. And our students too. And yeah, opening opening day, we we brought a bunch of our high school students and did all of that. And, you know, it was a great way to get our students who are upper middle class and upper upper class involved in that refugee and IDP situation in a way that they think had been a little bit afraid to do before.

Erik: It was really I think it was really interesting to have yeah… become a link to for our students connecting to to those communities. It actually turned out to work out to actually students Colleen and I had taught in Suly who graduated out of CSM and went to university, their universities contacted us to do volunteer projects and a lot of those students came all the way from Suly to our school without our really, you know, orchestrating it. It was just the fact that that relational contact was there that allowed them to volunteer at the camp. So that was really sweet.

Colleen: That's so cool.

Hannah: Yeah. Did you feel like your time having already lived in Iraq and you got your Kurdish studies master's at that in the in between time, so you know, you weren't wasting your time by any means. How much do you feel like that helped you with those connections and overcoming some of the the cultural weirdnesses?

Erik: So that's a good question. And it's hard to answer. I think that… Okay, so my sequence of living in Iraq first and then doing a degree in it, I think was really good because that you need some grounding in reality. Right? And what you know isn't necessarily what's true for all times of, of of the groups and people in Iraq but that grounding in in the Middle East and the sense of how culture works just from your own personal immersion in it really is an important foundation, especially if you're not a native from Iraq. So that immediately, like if I had gone into it without that, that would have been a problem. I would have been lost. But then the, you know, Middle East Studies, Kurdish studies, it was helpful because it gave me a broader knowledge of where the discussions are and related to, you know, history, ethnography, anthropology of, you know, Kurds, Yazidis, communities in Iraq. So it was really helpful to get a broader exposure to literature from from people who have studied this and also I felt that it really helped get it giving more of an ethnographic basis, ethnographic basis to knowledge. So there's a lot of there's a lot of good ethnography that's been done on Iraq and the communities there. And so the fact that we're working with displaced Yazidis communities from from Sinjar, I think that really did provide me a lot richer context to kind of be aware of what I was… who I was working with. Right. So you can't go wrong, you know, doing a little research and reading. But but I think that personal exposure to to the cities and communities in Kurdistan, that was really helpful to get first.

Hannah: Yeah. Because you didn't have to overcome some of the like how do we get around and how do we communicate and you already had that right.

Erik: And just just a sense, I think. Just a sense of actually knowing the rhythm of life within your own sensory experience, right? If you have that, you'll be thrown by so much less or you won't be thrown as much. If you've been exposed, like your senses have been exposed to life. And so going back that second or third time, I'm able to deal with other kinds of conflicts because those small living ones, those are already settled. So, you know, you're already kind of at home.

Hannah: So the number one way that we get new people in Iraq is by other people telling them about Iraq. So maybe you're not interested in going, but maybe you know someone who is. Tell them about this podcast. Tell them about Servant Group International. It'd be a big help!

Colleen: So as you did do that studying, what… did it change the way you saw Kurds or the way you saw Kurdish culture or how things functioned there? Was there anything that gave you like, Oh, that's why that functions that way or…

Erik: Well, I think it gave, because the at least the degree I took was, you know, academic so it tries to stay above the fray of, you know, identity arguments or, you know, which which national arguments are correct. So it provides a little bit of distance. And I think as a guest in any culture, you need to develop that distance anyway, right? So that you're not completely a partisan in conflicts that have nothing to do with you.

Hannah: Right.

Erik: So I think it helped me, I think maybe be a little wiser with things I might, you know, knowing the relationships between ideas and families and all of that, you still pick that up living, living there anyway. But I think, you know, a lot of people make claims about history and so it just made it more complicated because with any history that's thousands of years old. Right. It's hard to make really, really strong, definitive claims. I don't want to offend anyone. Or it did make me appreciate all the stories I have heard. Right. And so and I really love jumping into stories and where people where they get their stories, who they get them from, how those stories have been inherited over time. And that's one of the kind of joys of being among Kurds and Yazidis and all the other groups is that they have so many amazing stories and it's really fun to get into those.

Hannah: I think we're going to maybe have to do a whole podcast where you get to tell us some of those stories because I now want to know. Yeah, and we did a… we did a brief series on Yazidi mythology and theology. So if you don't know who the Yazidis are, go listen to those episodes. They're great. Well, I think they're great because I did all the research, but they'll they'll fill in some of the gaps there. Is there anything that you learned in in those studies that was like a surprise that you didn't already have some inkling of?

Erik: So, yes. I think there was other than like little historical moments that I wasn't aware of, I think Iraq is very, very much… It's all about the village, Right. And so things are things are very local and people's attachments and sense of place is really, really important. So people who've done fieldwork in these villages and have done observations and talked and developed relationships over many years, have a lot of valuable things to share. So I think I read a book by Diane King called Kurdistan on the Global Stage, and I was really surprised by her providing a a richer layer of context to things that you might just assume are really simple concepts like, say, honor, shame, you know, honor, shame is really important. Well, it is, but why is it important and what makes it meaningful? Right. And so so I think reading her observations about how kinship works in families, you know, how how gender works, marriages, connections between families and lands and then and inheritance. Right. How how identity is passed down through fathers right to their children and how how all three of those interplay right to create a rich honor culture. And so I would have generally thought, okay you got to respect people because honor is an important thing here. But but actually, there's all these other relationships that make it really important and make you understand the why. Right? And it's you step into another culture and you sometimes we're tempted to make assumptions that this does not make sense. This just does not make sense. Right. To to your framework, but actually it's profoundly meaningful.

Colleen: Yeah.

Erik: Everything you see. And so some of this literature really has brought out a lot more, giving me more, more of a framework for the meaning of the place, right. And what I'm trying to navigate there. So yeah, I just make that plug for that book, but also to always be just developing questions and asking questions because there's just… I think it'd be a shame to go all that way to Iraq and leave, not like with just a richer appreciation for what you what you've been in the middle of. Which is really special.

Colleen: Well, we can definitely link that book in the show notes. You mentioned honor, shame and relationship to gender and marriage. And so some of our questions definitely have to do with some of the gender differences and the way those affect your life versus, you know, the way they affected our lives. Did you enter any spaces that were like obviously male or female dominated? And how did that make you feel?

Erik: So yes, I did. So what I say is like my experience, right? I wouldn't basically try to paint with too broad a brush. But so generally I mean, just as a general thing, I think the the home is very, very much family space and female space. Right. So so I my whole time in Iraq, I've been a single, single guy. And so as a general rule I don't spend much time in homes. In fact, it's very, very rarely do I go into someone's home. If someone does invite me over, they're probably a really good friend. And the fact that if I if I do go into the home sometimes I probably either just very briefly say hi to the mother or sisters, but they're probably in another room and they come out and serve us some tea or food and then go out again. So that's just it's just a space that, you know, single guys aren't in. If you are, if you had a family, that'd be a different story. So as a single guy, most of the time I'm out in public in cafes and restaurants and going on picnics or going up to different sites with friends or going to places to play games with other guys like me. So that would be the closest to like a female dominated space. And my like, you know, female colleagues actually spend quite a lot of time at homes and they get to spend the night at homes and they they get, you know, almost I'm almost envious of how much access they have. They might feel more restricted. Right. But actually, I see that there's a lot more liberty in some of their relationships with with families than than I could ever have.

Colleen: Yeah. I can see that.

Erik: Now if I'm in public, you know, there's a lot of interaction between men and women. It's, it's not like it doesn't happen, especially if you're colleagues at schools universities there's, there's plenty of interaction. But that's… the space is different. And now if you go into an office, a government office, you could also go into an office with, you know, a woman sitting in the most important seat. Right? But you'd be wrong to think that's a female dominated space, right? The question it would be. Okay, whose daughter is she? Right. Who what are her relationships? Right. That connect her to this position. And more often than not, they'll be, you know, some family important family relationship that's not disconnected from male leadership. Right. It's not not saying there's no not a meritocracy or that there's people aren't good at their jobs. It's just that the assumption that, okay, she's in an important position, therefore it's a female dominated space would be different, right? Yeah. So most most public spaces are male spaces. Right? And you'll see that even in how the layout of things are laid out in, in restaurants and other places, the family space or the female space is a little more removed the more public space is where all the all the men are sitting. And this I mean, we could talk and talk and talk about this. I think you're you don't you never get away from what you are as a as a man or a woman in in these places. You're always interpreted that way so you have to… I think that's part of the nuances of working there over time as you get used to like making these judgments yourself and realizing just how much is going on, right? It's really easy to live there and not really think about what's going on. But the longer you're there, the more you see it. It's actually kind of nice. There's I'd say that most of my friendships are male friendships, though.

Hannah: Yeah. And I think we would say that most of our friendships are female friendships and that's just the way that it is. I think it's easy for us as women to get frustrated with the freedom that we see our our male teammates have. But yeah, I hadn't really thought about how you guys don't get invited into people's houses and it makes total sense to me why it is that way. But yeah, I think most of my my team time was with families or other single women, but always wanted to know what is it like in those cafes that only men can go in?

Erik: What do you mean?

Hannah: Like. Like what? What do you guys do in there?

Erik: Oh, man, it's… I actually miss it. Um, so I think it's, you know, it's just. Well, it's really a lot of guys on their phones and smoking, right? And, um, and watching, watching sports or music videos.

Colleen: And you miss it?

Erik: Playing, playing sports, or cards, or backgammon. Um, but, but that's not the aspect that I miss, but it's, it's the fact that you can just sit with a group of people over a long period of time and you don't have to… The conversation does not have to be interesting you can just sit there and then you can you can laugh, you can talk, you can go silent. It's just it really it's just about being with your friends and and in Iraq, you know, wherever you go in Iraq. Friendship is just such a high value. And the there's there's quality of friendship. There's depth of friendship. There's a lot of expectation with friendship, right? So you end up spending just a lot of time with people that consider you a friend. And so there's something there's something unique about that and really special about that. Once you've been in it. It can be exhausting. But it's also really it's really sweet so…

Colleen: I mean I think that's kind of a lot of what the time for women in the homes looks like is that same.

Hannah: Just less smoking,

Colleen: Yeah, less smoking.

Colleen: Yeah, but the same sense of just being together and that that is enough to grow your friendship without having some grand deep sharing or like something that you've accomplished or like any other thing than just presence.

Erik: Totally. Yeah. I'm trying to think what else goes on. I mean, just a lot of, lot of talking. So and that's the other thing. I think the number one form of entertainment is talk so people talk and talk and talk and it's just a form of entertainment and so it's it's a lot of fun.

Hannah: Are the men gossipy this this may or may not make it into podcast

Erik: O for sure.

Hannah: Yeah.

Erik: Yeah. Oh I think so yeah they talk about all kinds of stuff. Probably. I wonder though. I'm not going to say that if you're in a cafe, sometimes the talk can go deep, but a lot of times it's surface level. Right? And if you're with with another friend somewhere else, it might be, you know, because people are always weighing who's around them and how they speak. And so trust can be low in a in a super public place. You know, you always have to be mindful of how you speak about your friend because you don't want to hurt your friend's, um, image or reputation. So I think, you know, a super public space lends itself to a little bit more surface level talk. Not to say you can't have good conversations in those places, but if you really want to have a, you know, deeper conversation, you might or more personal, you might need to be around a few little less people. And I imagine that in the home that's different. I think I think ladies would go deeper, faster within the privacy of the home.

Colleen: Provided you have the language skills.

Erik: And language skills. Yes. Yeah.

Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servant Group International on Facebook or Instagram and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at servantgroup.org.

Hannah: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on, It helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next.

Both: Thanks for listening.

Hannah: But it's okay. I know that the Suly team was better, and it doesn't hurt my feelings. It's totally fine.