Part 2 of our interview with Erik about life and culture in Iraq. Also, an amazing story of how he survived a 100mph crash on a highway!

Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org.

Here's a Rough Transcript!

Hannah: Welcome to Between Iraq and a Hard Place. I'm Hannah.

Colleen: And I'm Colleen. And we're here to tell you a little bit about life in Iraq. Woo hoo!

Hannah: So we talked about female and male dominated spaces when you were around Kurdish or Arabic women. Did you? How much of that tension did you feel? Was it uncomfortable? And how much of that do you think came from what you know and like women actually being like, hey, don't talk to me.

Erik: So in general, I almost never speak to women publicly, that I don't know. Sure. Right. So if I'm at a restaurant and it's very natural common just to be ignored, Right. Because girls go out with girls and they you know, that's that's their time. And there is a lot of it is a bit of a dance, though, right? Because there's dynamics between, you know, the guys and the girls. Right. Even if they never speak to each other, there's stuff going on, right?

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

Erik: And so and everybody's kind of very closely curating their image, through both phones, social media and presence in public spaces. So that's, I would say that. But in general, don't really get to talk or don't talk to people that I don't know. And now if I if I have students and their families, then by all means always show respect and greet, greet people publicly when you recognize them. And it's people do like to be recognized and publicly. So whether you're, you know, a guy or a girl, if you're if you're talking if you recognize someone, it's it's good to I think recognize them publicly. Tensions? You can't think of a lot of tensions that I that I've that I've felt I haven't been in too many difficult situations. I think when moving between communities. I think I felt more tension or at least been more aware because things are changing based on the community I'm working with. So I was very comfortable around Kurdish people, right? I taught, taught them, had a lot of interaction. But when I moved to Yazidis, well, that's a whole different story of, of what's, what's going on there. And then there's Christian communities, too. So I think moving between communities, it's the process of kind of learning and being just very observant, right. Of your surroundings and how your how you're treated as a guest. So being a guest is a, you know, superpower and skill that you have to develop to be a good guest. And they are extraordinary hosts, right? And that's also something we have to learn. I think think the ladies have to learn that a lot with greater detail because they'll get really judged if they're bad hosts. Right.

Hannah: Yes.

Erik: And and I'm people would just assume that I would be clueless about that because I'm a guy and and I'm, you know, not married. So they would just assume that I'm not able to host or cook or do anything. But so so there's differences there. But then when I was in southern Iraq, I was really on high alert because I had no idea what I was doing there. And there's other complications of, you know, having spent no time there before, and then totally different religious community that I'm working in. And then I was teaching at an all girls school where all the conservative families sent their sent their daughters so that they would have no interaction with men. So that was that. Then I was super trying to be on my best behavior, but that without knowing all the rules. In general, I think that the reason maybe I haven't felt a lot of tension is that Iraqis overlook faults a lot for foreigners and they are very generous. And if you do say something that's horribly awkward or wrong, they'll try to rectify the situation for you or it'll be left unsaid and you'll never know about what you did, right? Yeah, but everybody else will. So I've probably, you know, made many, many mistakes that people have generously overlooked. It's a real lesson in hospitality, the fact that people are not quick to take offense, but to kind of sidestep that for your sake. When I first went to Kurdistan, I definitely felt nervous around ladies because I had no idea, I expected it to be a lot more conservative than it was.

Colleen: How did you see the expat community change while you were there or in the different places that you were?

Erik: So I think the expat community was a lot smaller and more tight knit when I when I first arrived and and composed of a lot of a lot of families actually that had been working in the area for quite a while. So a lot of people who had a lot of context in the cities they lived in and the places they lived in. And over time there's just been so much more turnover and so much more volume of foreigners coming through. And not just Westerners, not just Americans, but people from all over. Right? Aid organizations, international aid organizations from all sorts of countries have been through. So for the place they have gotten used to seeing a lot more foreigners pass through work and leave. So I'll say like there's way less of a wow factor now when when a foreigner arrives, you might get stopped on the street. People will always want to know where you're from, what you're doing, and that that's an area of interest that will stay. But it's a little less of a novelty to society that that there'd be someone like you there working. So the kind of work has changed. There's a lot of aid that's come in. And between 2015 and 2017-18, there was just a lot a lot of organizations. Since then it's become very small again. So there's far fewer organizations working in Iraq. And and so it's becoming a smaller community again, from my observation. Those organizations are still there, but maybe they've pulled their offices out of Suly or Dohuk and maybe they have one big office in Erbil. And then they have, you know, whatever whoever their staff are will be local partners in, you know, Suly, Dohuk or any other region. And they won't actually have a lot of foreign workers in those places. And a lot of those aid organizations shifted to southern Iraq, to Mosul after 2017. Now, I'm not sure where they are. So the cities have grown a lot over those same years. A lot more shopping, a lot more malls. The cities have grown quite a bit in the last years and over let's see, yeah, over the last seven years, the biggest growth, I think in like a city like Dohuk or Erbil has been from people moving from southern Iraq into the Kurdish cities. You have lots of lots of Christians and Sunnis and some Shia groups all relocating their homes to to these northern Kurdish cities. So that's the biggest growth.

Colleen: Did you find most of your friendship and community in the expat community or in other places?

Erik: I think while I worked at the high schools, most of my community was my team and the students and their families, and that was a really, really wonderful experience, being so connected to families. So most of my community would not have been expats during the first years, but after, when I moved to Dohuk, that kind of flipped. Most of my community at that time were the, you know, international workers and people working in the camps and my team. And so I think some of that was a difference between maybe Suly and Dohuk, but also just having less of a foundation in Dohuk with with families. And I think Dohuk is a little bit more private of a city. So because of that, most of my community were expats in Dohuk, my own team, or non-native people in Dohuk. What I mean is not people from Dohuk. So I had a whole bunch of Christian friends from Mosul who who were displaced out of Mosul. And I'd hang out with them a lot or a lot of Yazidi friends from Sinjar or even even Syrian friends who'd come over from Syria. And now we're living in Dohuk. So basically, I found that a lot of the families who had migrated to Dohuk were up for starting friendships, right, in relationships and up for having having me over to their homes and connecting or going out. And so it just shifted because it seemed that a lot of people from Dohuk were pretty well established there. And I find that the circles of friendships go really deep, but sometimes the circles are rather small. In my case, I ended up connecting with more people from outside. That's not to say I don't know people from Dohuk, but …in general.

Hannah: I noticed that more in Dohuk than even in Hawler (Erbil) that it was like they didn't know how to be friends with people outside of the friends that they kind of grew up with, because Dohuk is a little bit more village-y, and everybody that's there is there and has been there forever. And their grandparents were friends. And so there was a little bit of a like, we like you and we want you to be part of this, but we don't know.. we're not quite sure how that works.

Erik: Yeah, I'd agree because I think the people in Dohuk are very, very respectful people. They treat you very courteously wherever you go, generally. But the, you know, the how you connect and be friends. That's a different question. And I think that that's, you know, a testament to actually, up until recently, it has been a very small place with not a lot of foreigners there. So it's understandable that that's kind of an adjustment. Also there they have a, you know, a long history and, you know, deep, deep connections to families and neighbors and very close with cousins and siblings and big families. So if you think about it, they have a very rich social life already, right?

Hannah: This is the middle, the middle of the podcast where we interrupt ourselves to tell you things. And the only thing I really want to tell you is that you should go to Iraq because it's awesome and we'd love to get you there.

Colleen: Did you have a favorite food while you lived in Iraq?

Erik: I think the best food in Iraq is home food. And again, I didn't spend much time in people's homes. So, but actually, I love Dolma, Yaprax, and there's some some meat dishes that I really like. I really like Koozi, which is like this slow cooked lamb over rice. That's just very tender and delicious. They've got a lot of good food.

Colleen: So if you ever go out at night with with the guys and do the Serupe, the head and foot soup.

Erik: Definitely did do that. Yes. And actually, it tastes really good. So. If you can get past the description, I, I kind of liked it.

Colleen: Great. Did you have any favorite adventures or experiences?

Erik: Oh, man. Let's see. I mean, of course. But there's just. There's just a lot to choose from. I think I did survive a high speed taxi crash on a highway. And I've gotten I've gotten a lot of mileage out of that story over the years. Should I should I go there?

Colleen: Yeah, you should.

Hannah: Tell a story. It's a good one.

Erik: Well, it was I was on my way to to get a flight out of the country for Christmas to meet a cousin in Germany. I got in a cab between Suly and Erbil to get there, and it was. It was a full cab. So I was in the back middle seat with no seat belts. The back seat almost never has seat belts. And the two people in the front did have seat belts. So we were going and he just when it came to the, you know, straight straight portion of the highway between Kirkuk and Erbil, he just started going so fast. And I think when I last looked at the speedometer, we were going 160km an hour somewhere, somewhere near like that's I think that's about 90. [It's actually closer to 100mph.] But eventually somebody tried to cut us off and we lost control of the car. And we, we slid into the divider of the highway and crashed into it and flipped over. And then the vehicle started rolling across the the oncoming lanes of traffic. And as we are rolling, my door bends off the car and then I fall out of the car with the two two other guys. So this all happened very fast. Uh, the next thing, the next thing I was aware of was that I was out outside of the car, face down in a field, and I had all this, like, kind of moist dirt in my mouth. And so I guess I wasn't aware of whether I had legs or not or whether the car was on top of me or what what was going on. But so I just thought figured I just lay there. And when I when I looked over, there was another guy face down and then to my left and the other guy on my right was in the same position. But I just look at them and they just they just hopped on their feet immediately and just kind of like casually, like brushing off the the dirt from their clothes as if like, nothing had happened. So we work perfectly fine. I had we miraculously landed on a field with with moist dirt between Kirkuk and Erbil. And I stayed there just a little longer laying down because I didn't want to hurt anything. And while I was there, somebody like picked up my glasses and brought it over to me and someone else picked up my phone that had flown out and brought it to me. And by that time, I finally did get to my feet and the car was totaled. So it was a it actually was a bit emotional. Once when I called my parents, when I called my parents, that's when the kind of release came. It wasn't I hadn't realized how much tension I had in my body, but I went over to the taxi, got my stuff out, and somebody else offered me a ride and I got in the next cab and made it to Erbil to get my plane on time to make Christmas with my cousin.

Hannah: Um, no major injuries or?

Erik: I was really sore. My ribs were really sore, but, um, I mean, not a scratch, really. Not a scratch. Physically.

Colleen: Your glasses and your phone were both fine.

Erik: Everything was fine. And the other. The other thing about that, which was funny as I was driving away, which is a very, very Kurdish thing, the the other taxi driver that offered me a ride as we were driving away, he kept on looking back at me in the back seat and trying to explain that he had seen everything and just to simulate it, he would yank his steering wheel back and forth just to show that he saw that what happened to our car? So, um, and I realized after the fact that as we rolled across the highway, I involuntarily screamed just this involuntary thing out of my body, and no one else made a sound. So, I was a little embarrassed after that. I was the one that couldn't just, you know, just take it silently. But that was that was that was amazing. I've had a lot of funny experiences in in people's offices. Anyway, I'm really grateful that was. Yeah. That that story didn't end badly.

Hannah: Oh, my goodness.

Erik: Other important, other fun things. I think if you're in Kurdistan, there's so many cool places to go. So I loved going to Lalish, which is the Yazidi, most important Yazidi temples and then going to Korek mountain and, you know, being up in the mountains in the snow and getting a renting a cabin there. But there's there's a lot of cool, historic things to do in Kurdistan and have a lot of good memories of going there with friends and teammates. There's a lot to see.

Colleen: What do you miss most?

Erik: Um, like, I really like walking through cities and I like that Dohuk was really walkable, and it's neat because in a small place or in a place like that, people really get to know you everywhere you go. And so it's even though it's not a small town, Dohuk, I mean it's a big city. But but everywhere you go, it's like you're known and you have these little personal relationships with every little shopkeeper and every place you go. And if you're coming from a city in America, that might not be an experience you have often, but it actually does fulfill something in your heart, I think, to have all these little connections and to be placed right, even if there's some discomforts from being an outsider. There's a lot of little things that I appreciate about it. And so I lived for a while. I lived above a mish mish, which is a sweet shop that delivers cakes and sweets all over Dohuk. And in the morning sometimes I just go downstairs and help them, you know, set the tables or just sit down and, you know, just a lot of just very familial kind of casual friendships where you just you just hang out. And I do really miss that. Yeah, I missed the hikes as well. There's a lot of cool places to hike in Kurdistan, and it's a real fun activity to go, you know, put some food together and go up a mountain and spend a morning up there. And I miss people, of course. I miss them.

Colleen: Of course. That was assumed already.

Hannah: Yes.

Erik: Yes.

Hannah: Well, we've talked some about reverse culture shock coming from Kurdistan back to the US. What's it like for you going back to Mexico? What things are like, wow, this has really changed? Or just, because it's been a long time since you've lived in Mexico, right?

Erik: I'm like 18 years.

Hannah: Wow. Okay. Yeah.

Erik: Yeah. So I think to back up, I didn't have a lot of culture shock when I moved to Iraq, and I credit that partially because of my background here in Mexico. Some something about that wasn't completely, totally foreign to me. So I can't say that I feel a lot of reverse culture shock either. It's really nice to step back into Mexico and I've desired to do that for many years. I think that whatever the shock is, it's just because of it's it's a life life transition, right? And so taking on a new job or stuff like that. But Mexico is a very warm culture as well. And so I've actually the city I'm living in right now reminds me of Dohuk. It's surrounded by mountains. It's super small and walkable and people are rather conservative. So like, you know, people are glancing in my shopping cart, you know, inspecting my items, you know, as I'm in the lines, you know, there's like not a lot of personal space. And so there's a lot that reminds me of of Iraq. And I'm actually I'm actually really enjoying it but it feels a little more like home. So I am an outsider in the new city. I didn't grow up in northern Mexico, so that means I am there's a lot of cultural things that I'm having to learn here because it's just there's a lot of different differences between North and South. So yeah, um, I'm still kind of learning things culturally. I don't know if that's a good answer to the question.

Colleen: But it makes sense. I mean, I felt like some of those things that for me, moving to Nashville, culture shock or reentry was eased in some part by the fact that the South is such a different culture than where I grew up. It was easy to treat it as, Oh, this is just another foreign country, rather than like recognizing all the things that were different from where I grew up or that, you know, it wasn't how I experienced it growing up.

Erik: I'd say the other I think maybe I'm just fortunate that the place that I have landed here has a really kind of tight knit special community and they're very hospitable. So it's it's not like I'm starting out as a stranger. And and so I think I would feel I would feel the loneliness probably a lot more if I were starting out, like in a new place completely alone. Right. That's really nice.

Hannah: Your Spanish is all coming back to you?

Erik: Well, well, yes and no. I think, you know, after so I am a native and fluent speaker, but there's a lot of work to do, let's just say. And people do make fun of me. That's nothing new!

Hannah: You have like Kurdish words come to mind instead of the Spanish one or I mean you got a lot of languages floating in there.

Erik: Oh, man. You know, I know in Kurdistan I would certainly sometimes Spanish would be it wouldn't be an issue until I spoke to someone on the phone in Spanish. And then the next day in class I'd mix in some Spanish. Um, but actually, no, there are Kurdish expressions that come to my mind when living life. And I hope I hope that's always the case. I want it to be with me forever. So. And if I lose it, I have to go back to Kurdistan and get some more. Yeah.

Colleen: We've taught our roommates over the years several Kurdish phrases that are still a part of our lives. So yup.

Hannah: And we we frequently ask each other like, "What time is it?" in Kurdish, because it's easier to think of it that way than in English, which is bizarre.

Erik: But yeah, I think with at least with my even with my siblings, we grew up speaking English to each other inside the home, right. And Spanish in other places. But, but now when I reconnect with siblings, we basically speak in Spanish. And what that says to me is that this is the time that we shared together. Right. And the place that we shared most of our lives together. So speaking of Spanish cuts past everything else and goes right to home. Right. And so I think it's an unconscious thing, but that's what that's a way of being kind of close to each other. And so I think that's I could do that with, you know, teammates from Kurdistan too, you know, a little a little Kurdish word here and there brings back a lot.

Hannah: Yeah. Well, thanks for talking to us.

Colleen: Yeah, thanks for giving us your time. Yeah.

Erik: Sure thing. Very, very nice to talk to you.

Colleen: We'll have to touch base again with some stories from Kurdish history.

Erik: Okay.

Colleen: And or Kurdish myth, maybe. I don't know which where those stories all fall, but it'd be fun to have you share some of those stories with us.

Erik: I definitely need to polish up and get some student consultants.

Hannah: There you go.

Erik: To help me out with that. But yeah, I'd love to.

Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servant Group International on Facebook or Instagram, and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at ServantGroup.Org.

Hannah: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on. It helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next. Thanks for listening.

Erik: Excuse me. ACHOO!

Hannah: Bless you!

Erik: Edit that out.

Hannah: It's going to go in the end, the bloopers part.