We're back with Erik! And he shares a more thorough walk through the old history of the Kurds.

Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org.

Here's a Rough Transcript! Hannah: Welcome to between Iraq and a Hard Place. I'm Hannah.

Colleen: And I'm Colleen. And we're here to tell you a little bit about life in Iraq. Woo hoo!

Hannah: Hey, this is Hannah. I just wanted to put in a little disclaimer about this episode. The audio is not awesome. That's what happens when you try to record internationally over Zoom. So don't get distracted by the people in the background. Just pay attention to the history. All right, here we go. Welcome back to Erik. We did two podcasts with him just talking about his life in Iraq, and now we're going to talk about Kurdish history. It's just me and Erik today. Colleen's taking a vacation, so I hope I hope you're ready, Erik.

Erik: Yes, I am.

Hannah: Okay. Yeah. So we're going to talk about the history of the Kurds starting at the very well, I guess, the very beginning. What's the what's the earliest that we know about Kurds?

Erik: Oh, I would love to have a precise answer for that. I think if, uh, to play it safe, I'm going to say very, very early. Okay. I think, uh, the Kurds like a lot of different groups that lived in these mountainous areas around Turkey, Iran, andSyria, they pop up a lot in historical records and sometimes, uh, play major roles in big, big world historical events, even though generally they're on the sidelines to a lot of those events. So, we see what some Kurdish nationalist historians would say that the Medes would be the early Kurds. So. Okay. So some would trace Kurdish lineage all the way back to the Medes. From what I've read, it's hard to prove that there's a self-conscious entity called Kurds moving through time without changing, without intermarrying, without shifting with other groups of people around those areas. But they do have a case for it as far as there's always been people living in these hard to reach regions that have been on the peripheries of empires that have resisted being kind of subsumed within bigger, stronger empires. They've always kind of sought their own independence and autonomy. So we have the history books and records go very, very early that there there have been groups of people living in these areas very much like the Kurds. And so they they'd be called by all kinds of different names, but sometimes they're called by their occupations. So, the Kurds had a long history of being, being shepherds. So sometimes they're called shepherds, sometimes they're called variations of different words sounding like Kurd, and at other times they're called by their language, which that happens later. But, there's all these terms floating around that have kind of attached to Kurdish. They've also been called very pejoratively by people that don't appreciate them. They've been called brigands and bandits. And it gives you an idea of the kind of reputation that these independent groups living in the mountains had for disrupting trade, disrupting routes of merchants and other groups that would try to get safely from point A to point B and just end up not getting there safely. Yeah. Because of these groups that would take advantage of their vulnerability. So there's always been groups there, and they've always been somewhat independent, played different sides on the kind of politics and history. And the Kurds would have been one of those. Actually, do you have any questions?

Hannah: Well, I do want to clarify. When you talk about the Medes, that would be probably a reference point for most people would be like the Medes and the Persians from the Book of Daniel. Right?

Hannah: Yes. The medo-Persian Empire, the Medes were early…built somewhat of an empire. And then the kind of merged or mixed, and then the Persians ended up being supreme over time. But there's a connection to some of those leaders. I need to look up which ones would have been part Mede. And so, I think if you read the history books and you go to ancient histories of these areas, whether it's in Syria, Turkey, Iran, or groups like the Elamites that are also mentioned in all over history, they're groups that basically reside in the mountains and then kind of descend upon the cities and sometimes destroy them and then go back to their ways. I should have said they've also been called nomads because they don't…haven't stayed put. You know, their are ways of life require, you know, grazing in different places with their animal. And so there have been sedentary Kurds, but there have also been the strong tribes would be the ones that are not tied to the land, but rely on others to work the land while they go on raids or other occupations. So, they pop up a lot. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah: I imagine that their nomadic nature really is part of the reason it's hard to pin down. Like who are the Kurds and who are not?

Erik: I think so, I think so. One book…I think it's called A People Without a State that was written by, I think, Michael Epel, which I really liked. He made a generalization talking about how important geography is to to understanding the history of different peoples. And so he would say, just as, say, the Arab peoples, uh, connected to the deserts and kind of ways of life that revolved around that kind of geography. You could say the mountains have played that same role for the Kurds or the Mediterranean, right? For the Greek world. So the mountains have played just very large in basically the way of life and their imagination of who they are and what they represent and what they are. So and you'll see that reflected in their writing, their songs and even their…even the way they speak today. The mountains loom large. So, I'm convinced that they have a long, long, long story, that's existed there for quite a while. Not always expressed in political terms, but they've always been there.

Hannah: Colleen has a theory that she wants me to ask you about since she's not here…and get your opinion on. She thinks that the Kurds could be one of the lost tribes of Israel. Have you heard that? Do you have an opinion?

Erik: You know, just off the top of my head, I'd have to look at what the merits are to the argument. I couldn't say. What we do know is that Kurds and Jewish people have lived side by side. And then there's been a number of intermarriages between the two groups. And a lot of Kurds would say that their great grandmothers were Jewish in different places, and you can find synagogues and across Kurdistan. So there's definitely a connection, and there's no doubt in my mind that there's been some, you know, intermarriages and stuff like that. But whether that makes them one of the lost tribes, I'm a little more skeptical of. But I haven't studied any of it. In general, I think that wherever the British people have been or Kurdish tribes have kind of been dominant. I think whatever the Jewish or Armenian minorities would have been a few levels down right from them. And you read…There's a I think there's a wonderful book called My Father's Paradise. In that book, I think they referenced that a lot of the Jewish people living in Kurdistan they would actually, this is fascinating, they would actually be the kind of merchants that would go through and sell things to the different villages as they did that. So they had, you know, networks of families in different places and moved merchandise from place to place. But because of that, a number of these Jewish merchants were also known as the storytellers because they would go from place to place and tell stories, and these house stories would spread. And so the Kurdish culture just loves stories and storytelling. So there's definitely a fascinating interplay between the two and even a certain kinship that at least expressed and if not literally just, in almost spiritual or cultural terms that they'll talk affectionately about each other.

Erik: So, so you'll find the Medes playing roles in various biblical events, in the destruction of Babylon, the day of Pentecost, and in a number of other places. So fascinating, certainly. I think we more clearly see Kurds emerging from the fog. I think like during the Middle Ages, the Crusades, stuff like that, you start seeing there being kind of powerful families that arise. So you have the tribal level, but then when one tribe becomes really strong or one family becomes really strong and is able to kind of influence and by your loyalty or force, right? A whole bunch of other tribes, then then you get kind of what would eventually become like an Emirates or a Princedom where you have a now a kind of political entity that's not necessarily ethnic or national, I think, but definitely a political entity based on a family that has a lot of power. And so a famous example would be the Ayyubid dynasty, which was the Saladin's, um, family. So when Saladin, um, played his role in the Crusades across Egypt and Syria, um, what he left was the Ayyubid dynasty, a strong, strong dynasty of rulers that were Kurdish. Uh, and so these, these kind of and so the Kurds are just like a bunch of other groups that might have, um, these kind of emirate like or Princedom. Right? They emerge, but then they're subsumed or crushed within larger empires. So you start seeing those come up all around the Crusades time. And it's kind of chaotic because there's there's just a lot of different groups during that time. And so that then if I can just skip ahead because okay, so, so there's all these, all these groups, all these tribes living in this geographic, these geographical areas. And what you have are the rise of the Turks and also the Persians. And there's a religious divide between both empires. And so you'd get all those smaller entities would have to kind of pick sides or side with the one that's closest and strongest and able to compel them the most. The Kurds end up being in between both of these empires, um, that are fighting. But, uh, diplomatically, you have different Kurds who've always played a role in these bigger administrations. Right. And so there was a very, I believe his name is Idris Bitlisi. But like, okay, don't quote me on that. I may need to I may need to fact check myself later. I don't have my notes.

Hannah: If you're wrong, we'll put a correction in the show notes.

Erik: Yes.

Hannah: You got that.

Erik: So so he. Between this conflict, he rose in the Ottoman courts. He was a he was this figure that was able to kind of tour Kurdistan and convince a lot of tribal leaders on the peripheries of the Ottoman Empire that could have gone either way. He convinced a lot of families to side with the Ottomans. Part of that sort of religious reason, because they were Sunni. Right. And so there. And but also because the Ottomans were promising more decentralized arrangement with these tribes on the areas. And I think, I think at the time the Persians were a bit more, a bit more. Um, so anyway, in the 16th century, there was a big battle that was fought called battle Calderon. And that set the boundary between Persia, Turkey, and there were basically Kurdish families on both sides of that. And so some, some were more in the Persian area and many, many others were on the, um, Turkish side. And so. Yes?

Hannah: Is that boundary where modern day Iraq would be now, or more towards Turkey or more towards it's Iran?

Erik: Um, if you go north, I think Iraq is maybe shifted, but if you go north, it's roughly what the boundary is between Turkey and Iran.

Hannah: Okay.

Hannah: So the number one way that we get new people in Iraq is by other people telling them about Iraq. So maybe you're not interested in going, but maybe you know someone who is. Tell them about this podcast. Tell them about Servant Group International. It would be a big help.

Erik: So anyway and so that starts this period, this kind of more modern period for the Kurds where they are, you know, there always seem to always be divided between various spheres of influence, whether it's nation states and empires or other things. There's never a full unity. But there are common ways of life. And so, uh, the arrangement is that there are… Oh. And then and then, of course, Turkey and Persia kind of compete over, uh, Iraq, uh, modern day Iraq and, um, Baghdad and uh, other cities in Iraq. So, so the arrangement between the Ottoman and the Kurds is decentralized. This is very, very common between patron client relationship is that the patron grants you certain privileges and you grant them, you give back loyalty. Uh, the patron might arm your tribe and with with the understanding that you will pay your taxes and fight for them when the time comes against their rivals. So this really works for the Kurds because they they can essentially ignore the central government most of the time and occasionally pay taxes or… it's a decentralized arrangement in which they're free to develop. Right?

Hannah: Right.

Erik: Okay. So this is where I think the I, the Kurdish political kind of expression starts to get more pronounced because they then have space to kind of fight amongst themselves, but then have different strong, uh, strong families arise that then arise to a higher level than tribe like a confederation of tribes, which is one family or one leader commanding many, many tribes underneath them. Right? And that functions on a decentralized level, or the empire. Eventually, these are called emirates. And these emirates get really, really strong and to the point where they can even fend off Ottoman armies that come to try to make them submit. There's a wonderful scholar named Martin Van Bruinessen, and he's written lots of articles that are for free on academia.edu. He's just one of the most fascinating writers on the Kurds, and he writes really cool stuff about this period of time and the complicated social arrangements during this time. Anyway, so they get so strong that eventually the imperial governments decide, we can't have this anymore. And so they're just, we can't control them. We need to crush them. They sent armies in. And this coincides with the time that the Ottomans realized they've got to get their act together and centralize their empire and modernize it, or else they're going to be left behind by Europe. And so they actually go and they crush these emirates, and the emirates become fragmented and they it devolves back to kind of like the lowest level of organization of tribe, which is smaller, smaller tribes with no mediating authority to kind of adjudicate their disputes. So, they become kind of anarchic again. And there's a lot of bloodshed and a lot of fighting. And so unfortunately, they created a bigger problem by having no authority or no law. But the emirate period is really important for the Kurds because this is where like these are almost semi states in which the ruler has all this wealth and resources and is able to patronize the arts, Kurdish language. And so you have a lot of these kind of writings that have been written, stories that are important for the Kurds. Those are written during this time. A lot of poetry. And so a lot of that kind of national identity that you see now was planted during that period because there was, you know, relative prosperity and an ability to create culture during during that time.

Hannah: Because it's really the first time that they're, that they co-identify as like, hey, our tribe is not the only tribe that has these, these cultural things. There are all these other people too. And we can get along and we can get together.

Erik: That's a good point, actually. Yeah. I think that their, um, one of their poets laments that everybody encroaches on us and divides us. And, and so there is I think there is an understanding, although it's not again, it's not a unified political understanding of who they are. But there's a linguistic, more connections, uh, are made. So even when these emirates are crushed, those cultural products, creations endure. And people have kind of rescued those from the past and use them to tell the Kurdish story in our times. So that's that's pretty cool. There's um, I'll just say this again, if people like reading, um, there's a famous Ottoman traveler named Evliya Çelebi, and he traveled through the Ottoman Empire during this period of time. And he I mean, it's incredible because sometimes he's just fleeing for his life because someone in the emirates wants to kill him or the his patron decided they didn't like him anymore. But it's super entertaining and he just it's a good historical record of a traveler who went to these places and lived under the the permission of the rulers of different places and told just great stories. And some of some of the stories are a bit fantastic and hard to believe, but it's something else.

Erik: So that period of time, um, I think the Kurds, if we went way back, we'd go before Islam for the Kurds. But. Okay. Um, the Kurds eventually did become Islamic over time under these different empires. And so, so there's always been a level of there had been a level of loyalty between Kurdish tribes and the imperial center of the Ottoman Empire, um, because of religion. And so that's always been there's always been a you have the ethnic identity, but then you also have the empire, which is also united to a strong religious identity. So some of those kind of work against each other sometimes. And so at least politically. So if I were to go to the next period of time, okay, eventually there does again kind of build up some, some form of law and, uh, tract after this period of chaos. Different important. Religious families are able to eventually mediate conflict, establish law again, and become kind of influential and able to rule the Kurdish areas again. And so after this is 19th century, early 20th century, you have big groups again, and instead the Ottomans and others, instead of trying to kind of just crush Kurds, they would instead just try to pick the winners, decide will pay you to um, and will arm you. And then they those groups would then become the strongest out of the rest of the groups and be hopefully be loyal to the Ottomans. So that was a new kind of imperial policy of trying to modernize the empire. Also take take the kids of the ruling Kurdish families and have them grow up in Istanbul and learn the ways of the empire and stuff like that. So I think then because of those, those sons and daughters of these important families getting educated in the Imperial Center and reading all of what's going on with, the different nationalisms in Europe and they begin to foment their, their own sort of Kurdish nationalist. Yeah.

Hannah: So it kind of backfires.

Erik: Yeah. And try to promote that with, with their own families and you know, some, some tribal leaders kind of are like, that's interesting. I'll use some of this for myself, but they're not entirely nationalists. It's this kind of what they call proto nationalism. Um, World War One happens, and, um, the Kurds are not able to capitalize on the moment to get their own nation. Um, instead, they're.

Hannah: The Ottoman Empire kind of falls apart at that point.

Erik: Yes. Fell apart and, um, and the pieces were kind of a lot of people were trying to pick up the pieces. Yeah. So you you have Greeks, Turks, um, the French and English carving out spheres of the Middle East. And, and so the Kurds were not able to… they they weren't able to get the same kind of support, um, for their nation.

Hannah: Advocate for, hey, we are a solid group. We should have our own space.

Erik: Yeah.

Hannah: As the Europeans kind of come in.

Erik: Right. And then the there were a few treaties that seemed to suggest that they could. But then I think the real world kind of power politics came in when the Turks were able to reassert, uh, control over, over parts of Turkey. And that eventually meant that the Kurds were not able to really unite. It was it's it's a big mess. Soo anyway, once again, I guess in the 20th century, uh, you find there being a reality of Kurdish existence, a Kurdish ways of life and with a historical basis for their being on the land that they're on. But you also have the fact that they're kind of folded into now a lot of other spheres, nation states. And, you know, unfortunately, like an empire isn't just necessarily defined on ethnic lines, but like a nation state is. So they're very much losers in each of the, uh, nation states that they're put under. And they, they, they begin to be, um, suppressed on, on a language, on culture, on, ethnic grounds, whether it's Arabization policies and in Iraq or, Turkish politics in Turkey, uh, or Persian politics. So the 20th century was a really hard century for Kurds everywhere. Yeah.

Hannah: Can you talk a little bit about Arabization and what that means?

Erik: Um, well, I think in the context of Iraq now, I think there's there's a more complicated story to the Kurdish story in Iraq than just Arabization, because there was a number of interplay between the central government and the Kurdish tribes. And that wasn't always, um, at odds. But Iraqi politics gets more nationalistic and and goes away from monarchy towards like republic. And there were… it was kind of a tumultuous. And in 1958 there had been a lot of coup attempts by military officers that had been kind of schooled within Syria and other places in ideas of Arab nationalism. Right. And so, so any weakness on the part of the monarchy towards minority groups would really upset these nationalist officers that wanted a strong Arab state. And so there had been a lot of coup attempts. And in 1958 one succeeded and the royal family was was executed time forward there, there was only just a lot of assassinations and coup attempts successively by by successive leaders. But so the kind of that kind of politics ended up, um, much more aggressive against, you know, Kurdish separatism or Kurdish desires to be autonomous or Kurds just not wanting to play play ball with central governments. So I think Arabization this comes later during, I believe during the, the Baath Party. Um, there are certain valuable areas of Iraq like Kirkuk in which, um, that had Kurdish majority areas. And so there would be persecution of Kurds making their life difficult, or forcing families out of some of these cities and then bringing resettling Arab families from the south into cities like Kirkuk. So what you'd see is the goal over time was to make a city… shift its demographic balance from from Kurdish to Arab. And so that's super messy.

Hannah: Not so much like we want the Kurds to act and behave and co-marry with the Arabs so that eventually they go away. But we don't want the Kurds to be in the city, so we're going to send them somewhere else. So we have control of this area?

Erik: Yes. I don't think it's, uh, trying to dilute, like dilute or make, um, you know, make everyone intermarry. It's more thinking in terms of group and one group that policy pursued during the Saddam years. Um, but I think it was I think it was also practiced in other, other places with a strong Arab nationalism like Syria. I think the Kurds are are survivors of history. Um, they've somehow, um, clung on and been able to… it's incredible that they not disappeared. Um, right. And they have lived through some of the toughest realities of the 20th century. When it comes to warfare, towards how groups adjust to nation states and state building. Uh, they got they got some of the hardest parts of that. Um, I know we haven't talked about the some of the major things in the latter half of the 20th century. We go to the Kurds, but, um, yeah.

Hannah: Yeah, I think we have some old episodes where we talked to Dave about Iraq history, where he goes into some of that more modern Kurdish history.

Erik: Yeah, yeah.

Hannah: From Saddam on, at least. It's always a pleasure to get to talk to you.

Erik: Uh, one other thing. I, you know, I mentioned the Emirate period and then later period and, uh, spoke pretty generally. But I think one of the things I really just find a lot of joy in is that when you're dealing with a group as unique and independent as, uh, Kurdish tribes and Kurdistan, you're not you're not going to get the same sort of leader as you find other places. And so what I find is, you know, larger than life characters who are utterly unique, who are able to command with their charisma, uh, great loyalty from their followers. And it's not like you're not getting the lowest common denominator of person. You're you're getting these… just how how does this person exist? You know what? What created this person? They're so interesting. And it's really a joy to just read about them and and just admire them. So I, I recommend.

Hannah: Well, we are out of time. But we'll talk to you again soon.

Erik: Sounds good.

Hannah: All right. Thank you so much, Erik. Bye.

Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servent Group International on Facebook or Instagram, and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at ServantGroup.org.

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